Hit-N-Record
Welcome to Hit-N-Record! I'm Keno Manuel, a filmmaker, and I’m excited to bring you inspiring and insightful conversations with some of the most influential and creative minds in the creative space.
Each episode, I sit down with local creatives from filmmaking, photography, and other creative industries, offering you a unique perspective on their successes, challenges, and the lessons they've learned along the way.
Whether you're an aspiring filmmaking professional, an entrepreneur, or someone passionate about personal growth, I hope to provide and inspire you with the motivation and tools to unlock your potential and achieve your goals.
Join me every month on Spotify and Youtube, and become a part of the Hit-N-Record community!
Hit-N-Record
"Your follower count is meaningless—what really matters is the substance you create." | The Digital Landscape with Writer River Jack
Ever felt disheartened when your meticulously crafted content didn’t get the engagement you hoped for? Join us as we explore the highs and lows of being a digital content creator today. Through personal anecdotes and practical insights, we remind you why focusing on quality and meaningful impact often triumphs over sheer numbers. Our discussion ranges from the importance of cold opens in media to River’s fascinating background and her journey in the creative world.
Have you ever wondered about the nuances of internet relationships and the use of pen names for privacy? We delve into the complexities of parasocial relationships, examining their historical context and the psychological impacts they hold in the age of social media. We also discuss the intriguing dynamics between content creators and their audiences, pondering whether call-to-action prompts influence these one-sided connections. Get ready for a thought-provoking conversation about the long-term implications of these interactions and insightful reflections on personal experiences and creative pursuits.
Imagine a world where genuine connections and meaningful internet use redefine success. As we navigate through generational perspectives on technology, we touch upon the frustrations of surface-level interactions and underscore the value of authentic, artistic expression. From the evolving gig economy to the intricacies of telesocial relationships, we offer a heartfelt examination of how to embrace your creative journey in the digital age. Tune in to discover the significance of real conversations, the re-evaluation of what success means, and the celebration of literary contributions, all while maintaining a hopeful outlook amidst the rapid pace of technological change.
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If we were just making content creator a type of career in a box to check off. That is a very short lifespan.
Speaker 2:Not if they're doing it for good intentions, but the way to keep their intentions to projects, to reach a bigger audience where they want to prove to have a good influence. They would need a system that would fund their what they're trying to achieve.
Speaker 1:So many people are desensitized to the numbers when you're told to continue to grow, your YouTube channel's got to grow. To continue to grow, your YouTube channel's gotta grow, gotta grow, gotta grow. You could build a sustaining, impactful business from that. The things you create on there doesn't have a direct impact on the full extent of your reach, but you can then put yourself in a position to make larger reach. 10,000 people if you have their attention, that's a lot of people, and if those 10,000 people share your story with at least one person each, that's 20,000.
Speaker 1:There's another way to grow and scale without it needing to be this overnight thing. There are creators and artists and people I'm coming across all the time. When you look at their numbers, they're doing pretty well for themselves. They can be successful and do great things and make big impact in the communities that they want to and build all this stuff and have a legacy. There is enough room to make that big impact that we want without having to be an absurd number. If we want to have a world where we care about substance and art and care about each other, again, we got to get comfortable with smaller numbers and making a lot of success out of that, but I think we've been led to believe that we can't be successful without hitting certain numbers.
Speaker 2:Anybody can do anything Huh.
Speaker 1:The internet is an abundant place. Anybody can get anything done.
Speaker 2:Oh, we are going to get into that abundance place. I just like the quality of the. It's so Okay with the hidden, obviously. Uh, it's obvious I started, but it's the one of the frustrating thing is that I'm trying to put at least a valuable interview out there, but somehow the the ones are not valuable and they don't add to anything. Gets higher engagement. I'm like what the fuck?
Speaker 1:it's every time I have a creative manic episode and I finally draft out my next essay like a 2000 word sprint of a draft and then I spend days revising it and printing it out and hand revising it on paper and retyping stuff and I put it together and I hit publish and I'm like everybody, I put out a new essay, then I get like three people look at it and I'm like why?
Speaker 2:yeah why?
Speaker 1:but? But to be fair, I don't publish that frequently, so the algorithm has no idea what to do with me. The other thing, too. It's like, I think, do you just do cold opens to your podcast? I actually don't know. Wait, what do you mean, like a cold open where you aren? You just do cold opens to your podcast? I actually don't know.
Speaker 2:Wait what do you mean?
Speaker 1:Like a cold open where you aren't just like, hey, welcome to the podcast. And then you start Do you just like hit record?
Speaker 2:Yeah, see, you're about to say hit record. That's why I have that name as hit record I walked right into that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I do appreciate a cold open. I think that's probably one of my favorite like tropes. So anytime you watch like a TV show and instead of the first thing you see being like the title screen or the opening credits, it just starts the show. It's usually like a one-off joke, like that's a cold open. Like on SNL they do a cold open, and then they.
Speaker 2:With that being said, guys, as you already could tell, we just dived into a bit of an insight in what we're going. We're what we're going to be talking about internet stuff, maybe asmr but internet stuff mostly, this is go ahead what's your name?
Speaker 1:I'm river, by the way, in case you don't know.
Speaker 2:I feel like river is uh, according to my research guys, it's not even her real name. Hey, I saw it. Saw it, I think it was on Medium. Go to her socials you will find the direct evidence. Oh, actually, it was in the podcast with Vite IQ Viper. If you're watching this, thank you for doing the podcast with River Hi.
Speaker 1:Viper, it was a great episode.
Speaker 2:But you said I think my name is not even a government name because you're trying to protect your personality from online and reality but I'm going too far. Is that correct? Is that your real name or not?
Speaker 1:no, it's a, it's a pen name, it's a chosen name which, in the context of the internet, there is a time where we all used just our screen names and many people are known by their screen names, like mr beast's name, is not mr beast it's jimmy, you know yes that is not an uncommon thing.
Speaker 1:Stage performers use stage. It's Jimmy, you know. Yes, that is not an uncommon thing. Stage performers use stage names. It's just one of those things. The thing for me I don't think I talked about it with Viper, maybe I did. It's been like a year or so since I did that recording. The big thing for me, too, is my given name is very unique, and I have people from my past that I don't. I basically don't want them to have any claim to me, and one of the ways for me to feel like agency over that, especially if I do earnestly make an attempt to do anything public, even if it's like digitally public.
Speaker 1:I want to distance myself, keep that distance, keep that boundary from people like that and that is like who have known me in the past, who have done not great things to me.
Speaker 2:One involving a restraining order at one point.
Speaker 1:So it's like it was just a very bad relationship.
Speaker 2:I guess there is a value in having a government name. Now, protect yourself. My name is not kingdom, and well, anymore it is um maximus decimus from gladiator. Yes, anyways, in this episode we're going to be talking about all kinds of stuff related to the internet and we're going to talk about the writer her, her greatest upcoming into becoming the writer. And we're going to be talking about the writer her, her greatest upcoming into becoming the writer, and we're going to go into one of her. One of the best things that I found in the research about this whole entire episode for river is parasocial guys. Okay, if you want to follow this uh account or youtube channel or spotify you already know it's in the description. I don't really do call outs, like she said. That's what you're talking about. Just follow me. If you like it, cool.
Speaker 1:If you don't like it cool, just share this with your friends I literally had the thought that this thought passed my through my brain within the last 48 hours watching tiktok, as one does, and like 30 seconds into a video I'm watching they're, they do you know it's a stop and what they're saying to be like and if you like content like this, make sure you like follow whatever. And I'm like, do we even need to be saying that anymore at this point? Like, if you don't know, I don't know if it really does help to get people to follow you or like your stuff, like those types of things I feel like are ingrained in our behavior using the internet or using social media. But I just had that thought pass through my brain. I'm like do we even need to say that anymore?
Speaker 2:okay, we're gonna jump right straight into this uh conversation then. Well, with that being said, do you think that is actually complementing or adding? Is it adding or removing from this whole idea of the pair of social? Because you're trying to they're trying to create a connection with the viewer and if they're interacting with them by saying, hey guys, if you really like this content, it's sort of like an interaction that they're trying to create between um, from being behind in front of the camera and also trying to reach that to the viewer. Is it adding it or taking it away?
Speaker 1:so I I'll back up for a second for me, because for the conversation, for me, for you, for everybody involved here.
Speaker 1:So I first learned about parasocial relationships before I think the collective glob of the what the phenomenon is, which is a one-sided, unrequited, almost imagined or manufactured relationship between myself and a public figure or even a fictional character, because it is, in that situation, pretty impossible for the object of my attention in this example to know that I exist and even, as that evolved into you know, celebrities having some interactions with their fan base, or just people who admire them. They may know like, oh, I meet you at a meet and greet, you're a fan of mine, cool, but they will never know you on an interpersonal level.
Speaker 1:Yes cool, but they will never know you on an interpersonal level. So the parasocial relationship is very closely resembling an attributes to an interpersonal relationship, but it's one-sided to the person experiencing the parasocial relationship. And so in many ways it's kind of an abnormal way to form an attachment or relationship with another person, whether they are a fictional person or a real life person or they play a fictional character or something.
Speaker 1:Add into the mix the internet, where there is very real opportunity for complete strangers to interact with each other directly to acknowledge each other's existence, and that has been exacerbated by content creators like YouTubers being on a live stream and calling out you know somebody's name who left a comment and they're answering their questions and they're like oh my God this YouTuber knows who I am now.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's amazing, like it's a fun moment. It's pretty innocent in that. But it gets further complicated as those interactions kind of pile up. And so we see a lot of people using the term parasocial now a little flippantly, a little bit like a buzzword, a little bit of like that's parasocial of you. I kind of at this point want to continue to make arguments that not everything is parasocial. It may have attributes of a parasocial interaction or relationship, but it's not as simple as I am a fan of somebody and I have some attachment to them for whatever reason, but they'll never know who I am.
Speaker 1:But I will go to bat for them. I will go defend them in the comments of somebody saying bad things about them, like I would my best friend. Those are very human things. Going on is that we're communicating with each other at a volume and a scale and a speed that is completely unnatural to humans, which is online, through digital computer mediation. I'm looking at the laptop.
Speaker 2:Just call it go somewhere.
Speaker 1:I'm calling you out technology, oh man. But in the grand scheme of like humans communicating with each other, this has only existed for like a minute.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree yes.
Speaker 1:And so even me saying a moment ago like it should go without saying to go like and follow somebody who you see a piece of content from and you enjoy it, or you keep seeing it repeatedly and you're like you know what I am going to follow, that I am going to like it. You shouldn't have to tell a person to do that. We're kind of beyond being taught that.
Speaker 1:But, all of this is still new behaviors. It is brand spanking new and many of us are walking around acting like we understand it and we know the long-term implications of it. So for me it's like the parasocial piece of the puzzle is just a smaller piece of the puzzle and in many ways how we use parasocial as a term to describe things is kind of outdated and outside of what it was initially intended to describe.
Speaker 2:There you go, guys. There you have it. We have the biggest inside the bombshell. I'm gonna do what she just said. If you like this content, please subscribe or follow us on our blah blah, blah, blah. Just kidding. But we're gonna take a step back here and go into a back story, you know, like a back to the future kind of thing. How? So, knowing that whole interest in parasocial in my research it seems that you didn't come across that with attention. You came across it when you were I think you already had a two bachelor's degree in English and communications.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was when I was working on my communications degree. There you go.
Speaker 2:So we're going to backtrack even more. Add another who is River? Who is River Jack? Tell us your upcoming, your upbringing story to becoming a writer. Start from there, and then we're going to get into the meat and bones of parasocial Continue.
Speaker 1:We're trying to get people to form a parasocial relationship with me. I honestly think that's why I have not been as successful as I could have been online, it's because people have yet to form a parasocial relationship with me. All that being said, let me think how far back I'd like to go in my origin story.
Speaker 1:Actually, I do have a starting point that I think helps make a lot of sense and it is kind of how I acknowledged the writer in me in many ways. So when I was 21, I had a lot going on. I had left that abusive relationship and I had been out of it for some time, but the effects of it were still very alive in my life. And I actually got kicked out of college for a little bit.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 1:Because, like, my grades were awful, because I was too busy worrying about my very unhealthy relationship with a person, that just I was just in an orbit that I could not get out of for the longest time, and then I finally did. And then, by the time I did, I had to put the pieces of my life back together.
Speaker 1:And also like I was 21. I was a baby, I didn't know anything, I didn't know shit, and so I have always had very grand romantic ideas for myself, for my life and what it would look like, and so I have always had very grand romantic ideas for myself for my life and what it would look like. And so I'm like going through heartache. I go through the heartache of a rebound. I'm getting told hey, you are going to be suspended for a semester to think about your life and then you can and I was like I need to get out of this town.
Speaker 1:I literally had a 21st birthday slash going away party and then I the next morning like a few hours later after the party, got in my car and started driving from here to Las Vegas.
Speaker 2:Damn.
Speaker 1:I lived in Las Vegas for a few months. I lived with family. I lived in Las Vegas for a few months. I lived with family. So it wasn't just like on a whim or anything like the picture of Sin City that some people like to think of. So when they hear that I was like 21 when I did this, I'm like I lived with my grandparents.
Speaker 1:I wasn't just going there completely untethered to anything. So that was the first time I lived away from here in Florida, in this area. I've grown up here, I've lived here my whole life. It was the first time being away from my mom, who is my immediate family.
Speaker 1:It's always just been me and her. So it was a very important time in my life to have that experience. And while I was there going through my feels, one 21 year old gal will do uh, I had always had not always, but for a while had a tarot deck and I started spending more time with it and learning about it and all this stuff.
Speaker 1:And one night I'm like hanging out with my coworker and like her mom and other people are there, they're like drinking and whatever, and I had my deck with me and I forget exactly how it came up, but I ended up giving a reading for the very first time to my coworker's mom and I'm just spitballing. I'm just like whatever's coming up.
Speaker 1:You know, lightning didn't crash, the ground didn't rumble I did not have, like you know, that's so raven, a psychic flash yeah, oh, I haven't heard that in a long time. I know deep cut um and I was, I like finished the reading and I kind of looked at them and I'm like because I'd never done one before for somebody else or just in front of people, that was the first time I did that and it was. They were just like that was so accurate, like this woman is a stranger to me.
Speaker 1:And I barely know these people, and so that was very interesting to start developing something that came very naturally to me, and along with that I was journaling a lot.
Speaker 2:I was writing in a diary.
Speaker 1:I was journaling and writing all the time and I had always done well in school with writing. That's what I got the highest marks on.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think the year prior I had a creative assignment, like my first semester of college or something, and, um, I basically turned a, fictionalized a very real traumatic experience and turned it into like this narrative piece and in a frame story to talk about other stuff. And uh, I remember that getting high remarks and I must have come back across it but at some point in in that time being a kind of more spiritual aware person, and uh writing like was the two things that came to me okay um, in that time.
Speaker 1:So I think that's when I realized like, oh, I think, I think I'm a writer, I think that's what's going on here is that there's a part of me that leans on this and um, trying to make sense of the world.
Speaker 1:So eventually, not long after that, uh moved back to florida, finished the first degree and then very quickly was like I don't know if I want to go to grad school, but I had like va benefits left over and so I was like, oh, I'll go to the comms department, because one of the instructors was building out more film production curriculum and I wanted to take those classes with them, and the comms department used to have tracks of like you could do the journalism track or TV broadcast or whatever. That didn't exist so you could do like whatever classes you wanted in the comms department. So like I did a lot of any of the film-related classes as possible, but, I, also had to take some regular old communications Careful.
Speaker 2:Starbucks, Starbucks. Paul needs to tear up reading right now. Probably does, Okay.
Speaker 1:So I had to do some of those introductory basic core classes in that and I think it was do some of those introductory like basic core classes in that. And I think it was in one of those where I'm like sitting in there with, you know, one of my fellow students in this class being like I'm about to turn 19 or 20 or whatever, and like me realizing she was born like the year 2000, 2001 and freaking out of like oh my God, she was born like the year 2000 or 2001 and freaking out of like oh my god.
Speaker 1:Um, but I think in one of those classes is when I came across the term parasocial, like in my research and then I, just I, I swear to god I still have this folder saved on my computer and on my hard drive of all of the academic journals available that I could find through, like the library database about parasocial relationships or parasocial phenomenon. Downloaded them and there was a very limited amount of these Like now there are more academically like academic studies out and definitely more attention on this subject.
Speaker 1:But I mean not to literally sound like myself in high school being the Tumblr kid that I was pre 2014 that everyone likes to romanticize, like I was on there years before that yeah um, I was into it before everyone else was into it. Like I liked it before it was popular.
Speaker 1:Like that is definitely a complex of of my youth and upbringing as a teenager, of like I was into this thing before everyone else was but literally like a few years later, more I I saw more and more people talking about parasocial relationships online and I'm like, oh, they know what I'm talking about or what I've been reading about. That's really interesting. And then it's just kind of taken off a little bit in the sense of like um, the term like gaslighting is has been co-opted by the internet to describe things that don't fall into a clinical definition of what gaslighting is in psychology and that's just going to happen in general when people pick stuff up and start using it kind of colloquially.
Speaker 1:But I mean that's kind of the fun yet annoying thing about human communication, like our language is going to change over time.
Speaker 1:And I think, because diving into this little tidbit, because we don't have as many of the nonverbal cues, that we are socialized and grew up with, like when it comes to texting somebody or leaving a comment on someone's like YouTube video, like we interpret things so differently and when the if you, you'll notice that sometimes people will have debates of like the generational divide, of you know someone's boomer mom being like hey, dot, dot, dot in a text. And then you read that and you're like what does that mean?
Speaker 2:That sounds serious.
Speaker 1:But like that poor mom, bless her heart, is sitting over there, she's just like hey, and that's what she she means. But to me when I read that, I'm like that means something different, and so that's kind of coming in in place of those non-verbal cues well, the thing about that one. Uh, before I'm a packed a whole story I know you're good, hey, don't even feel sorry, I also often interrupt my own train of thought. So when we start at point a and end up at w just you're doing wonderful.
Speaker 2:It gives me a lot of information to play with, to answer, to give a opinion on that part. It's just with the texting and everything that as it, just that I don't think the people that are being raised in this generation was. They will never understand the true value of uh connecting to one another. Before we got so in, we got so invested in our phones, computers the value of communicating to one another. And, bro, oh my gosh, you know what ticks me off when we have conversations, just nothing but small talk and surface level bullshit. I don't like that. That's why 10 record this.
Speaker 2:Conversations are fulfilling, but not. It's just. Nobody is just so it seems to me that no one is as interested, or no longer interested, in that kind of conversations. That's all I'm gonna say because I'm gonna go back into um. He mentioned that, the tarot reading, and then you had the spiritual awareness and then you it also. You also were involved in comms department as well as writing. It sounds to me that the, if you combine those two, there's gig craft media, because craft part, for some reason, all I thought of was which which somehow connects to connect that to tarot reading.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'm making more connections than I uh based on of that story see it, it does start to kind of make sense when I like talk about it, that's. I'll say this first. I was literally saying this to somebody yesterday. I was meeting for coffee and they have read some of my work, so it's nice to get feedback and I'm like my biggest thing is does it make sense?
Speaker 1:Because I'm convinced when I talk about stuff or when I explain stuff it doesn't make sense because I can see the 5D chess my brain is trying to play because everything's connected and you know is trying to play because everything's connected and you know potentially undiagnosed adhd. Be damned I. I'm just like I hope it makes sense. Whatever I'm saying or writing, I hope it makes sense. Um, but gig craft. Speaking of that, I literally I think I started it during the pandemic like I uh fundamentally wanted an llc, because I had been doing a lot of free like some freelance stuff, so like I was getting paid through like PayPal invoices.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And I was just through conversations with different friends of mine who kind of run their own little businesses and stuff, I was like, yeah, it might be a good idea to just do an LLC and I'm like, well, let me set some intention behind it, right? I was like I want to give myself something that allows me the space to continue to be fickle with what I do, because I will pick up different projects.
Speaker 1:I'll start different things all the time or have several different interests going at once or something gets put on the back burner for a period and then maybe months later, I'll come back to it and I think I remember saying to someone like well, I work a few different gigs and that's kind of part of my craft, and so I was like oh and that's how that came together. No-transcript slash. Graphic designer. I'm a I'm a writer, slash editor and um I think puno from. I love creatives and yeah she.
Speaker 1:She calls it slashies because ities because they're talking about the slash you do like writer, slash editor, that's the term that they use, and I think that's cute. I think I want a gig craft to be something like that too. If someone wants to describe part of my craft, my art, is that flexibility and my passions. Like they're all connected because I am into it, but it's, it's, you know, not falling following the traditional path.
Speaker 1:And I was very big into I don't follow the traditional path thing for a minute, like really unbearable about that of like I'm going to do whatever and like I think, I've a lot. I've calmed down a lot since then. I still am very clear on how I will never stop being stubborn about certain things.
Speaker 1:And it's probably because I don't fit into certain molds, and I'm okay with that. It offers myself freedom in some ways, as well as challenges that I need to work through when they come up. But I'm very aware like I don't fit in certain molds and there's no point in trying to shove myself into that and be miserable. And so all of that kind of came along with that idea of gig craft, came along with that idea of gig craft, and now it is something that, while I may not be actively promoting it or being like it's going to be this thing or this is a brand I'm running, whatever, like it still exists, even if I'm not, you know, talking about it online.
Speaker 1:It's there for me and that's kind of the intention I set behind it is like I want to have something for myself to create under if and when the time comes, and it can house different things. I think I I even envision like I would. What I would really love to do is just be the producer behind it. You know a ton of different projects and it'd be like you know, under that gig craft studio or house or whatever kind of uh situation that would be.
Speaker 1:But that's kind of my ideas behind it, you know if that's what it turns into, one day, when you know I hit the lottery, I finally win and I can just bankroll everybody else's projects because, I'm, like you're so much more talented than I am at operating a camera.
Speaker 1:I know I am not a camera operator Like I am not. I'm not good at that. I can do a couple of cool things with my iPhone. I barely know how to use the DSLR I already have. But I would rather, you know, be the person to bankroll your stuff and slap my name on it and then talk about how wonderful it is to other people. But unfortunately right now I don't have that kind of dough. So here we are.
Speaker 2:I think it's more of like. It's kind of like you're in your three-act structure Act one you started with this whole grand vision of what Gitcraft could be. Then you're in act two. I think you're still in the middle of act two before you get to act three. It's all humbling experiences, guys. Lots to unpack here, writing and all this and this and that. Going back to the conversation that we had off the camera in relation to the Gitcraft and writing. You talked a lot about how some authors and writers uh, I guess I'll bring ai into it, I guess, why not?
Speaker 1:um, it's unavoidable at this point?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's really unavoidable because, like what I would imagine, um back at okay 2020, that that must have been such a difficult time, and I think writing um became it sounds like it became an avenue for you to express a lot of your thoughts, which is why and also led to your um great videos like what is what is content, all of this and this and that, but the one thing I wanted to focus on for a few minutes on the writer's aspect what, when you write, it's like? Why does it feel like it's the only part of you that makes sense when it comes to putting your thoughts on a document paper, regardless of whether how much people will see it or not? Why does it feel like it's the perfect format for you?
Speaker 1:for me. I think it's how I understand myself or try to understand myself. Okay, I as a small child, very, very melodramatic, like the most like unbearably melodramatic child and anyone who did go to high school with me can tell you that I was a pain in the ass.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Very dramatic.
Speaker 2:Theater kid.
Speaker 1:No chorus kid oh.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I know Whoa.
Speaker 1:I would be so insufferable if I did do theater.
Speaker 2:Oh Lord.
Speaker 1:The good news is I have terrible stage fright so that's never gonna be a thing. I I liked chorus and the all of those situations. I never did solos. I did one once and I hated it, but with chorus because we had it was a team and I felt comfortable in in that. But no, I was not a theater kid. I I was not. And, all that being, no one can give me hate for saying that because I'm dating a former theater kid.
Speaker 2:So it, we support you theater, kids, just so you know. Okay, we're not canceling you.
Speaker 1:There is hope for you.
Speaker 2:We love you guys, so much, so freaking much. Thank you for your art and your time into recreating a popular place. Like Romeo and Juliet and some other Shakespearean, you did good yeah.
Speaker 1:But, all that being said, I feel things very deeply and big and whatever, and my imagination was always running wild and I think in some ways, if you zoom out, it could have been anything creative.
Speaker 1:It could be any creative medium. Writing just happened to be the thing that has stuck with me. Yeah, it's something that I can take with me no matter where I am, no matter where I go, no matter how long I neglect it, it's still there. It's something deeply personal and it just kind of has that. What is the thing that they called it? Or being in the presence of something higher, not to grandize it necessarily for myself or make it like this thing of hubris. If anything, it's more humbling. I help myself make sense of my thoughts, my feelings, my thoughts of the world. I have a lot of messages come through me at times.
Speaker 1:And that kind of goes back to the tarot thing. I have stopped not practicing. I just don't run the business anymore Like I read people's cards for years and then eventually felt called to kind of shutter the doors on that in some ways and maybe one day I'll be called to do it again, maybe not, I don't know. But it's still something I practice for myself and I mostly use it when I'm journaling. But when I was actively doing readings for clients, the thing that would always happen is I tell people I'm like I'm going to pull cards, I'm going to start talking, but if I kind of stop mid-sentence or if I'm silent for a few moments. But if I kind of stop mid-sentence or if I'm silent for a few moments, don't interrupt, because I'm listening and it's not like I'm physically hearing something with my ear, it's I'm having thoughts come up and coming through.
Speaker 1:Occasionally I'd get visuals, not, you know, doing readings for people or when I do readings for myself. It's very much comes out in the kinesthetics of the writing more so than in my head. But I will have like just a phrase come to mind while I'm brushing my teeth and I'm like that's so good, that's something I need to write down.
Speaker 2:That's something that needs to come through.
Speaker 1:I saw a quote somewhere on the internet in the last few months that really makes me feel a lot better about myself as a writer and it was basically talking about even even when you're not like physically sitting down and writing, writers are often writing in their heads and I'm like holy shit, shit, I do that all the time and I didn't even realize it until it was kind of pointed out, but I'm like I am actively writing in my head all the time. Some, some people might think of it as like an internal. You might be doing like internal narration or monologuing, like you know, pretending like you're the main character of a movie, and it's like I go to do this thing, but for me it's, it's like I am writing in my head all the time even if.
Speaker 1:I'm not thinking about it as writing, um, but yeah, that's. That's just what stuck in all of my different iterations of myself and all the different, you know, career day things I'd show up to at school. I think the thing about writing is I don't when it's intimate and personal, and even when I'm not trying to put myself out there with it.
Speaker 1:I, especially now, I'm comfortable with. I don't need to prove myself to myself as a writer. I know that I am and I think that's kind of the most important thing and I think my tendencies as a writer can still come through in the other things that I do. I feel like this is a newer movement that I'm on lately is kind of unlearning a lot of the teachings of the hustle culture of the creator economy, the gig economy of you know if you're an artist or you're a creator, a creator which that I have a like oh my god, I can't even get into that right now, because I will end up with a whole other rant for a moment.
Speaker 1:Like, seriously, I can't even you're good. You're doing great because what do you even mean? You're a creator. What are you talking about? You're an artist. I'm definitely now. I'm like. My next thing is I'm kind of over the term creator, like in some context. That makes sense and that and that applies. But most people I think there's so many people who are artists but they're calling themselves creator, and that's why I did that video essay. It kind of stems from that.
Speaker 2:What is the content?
Speaker 1:You're calling yourself a YouTuber, but you're not a YouTuber, you're a filmmaker.
Speaker 2:There's a huge difference in that I'm a creator, guys. I'm not a podcast host or YouTuber. I'm a creator. There you go, there you go hey, I'm going to say about the care card. Yeah, I guess it wasn't in your cards it wasn't in the cards I've died to say the second um.
Speaker 2:Writing has always been around, long long before technology was ever introduced it was, it was literally at the beginning of mankind for as long as we can recall, and it will always still be here afterwards, even if ai will take over terminator, we will kill you with our writings. I don't know why I said that. I don't think people really understand the value of writing in our own lives because, like what you said, when it, when it's being used as a way to meditate our thoughts, to write everything out, it seems like not a lot of people are doing that. I have never met a person in a in a while that writes or they do some form of mediation that involves an actual physical activity like writing or whatever. It's digital steve jobs.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for your phones, but you also introduced a lot of problems that you probably didn't think of. Short-term attention anyways go, we're going out of brand um. The other thing I wanted to know was you have this passion for writing. How did you translate that into your business and what were some of the challenges that came along with that? Because I remember you just said oh, I am, I will be stubborn in what I write and everything, because you, you know your value in who you are as a writer, and you also said that you no longer have to prove to anyone that you're a good writer. But how? How does that all? How does all of that translate into the business?
Speaker 1:I will make the caveat of like I am a writer, I may not be a good writer. That's a whole other conversation. It's a whole other thing. Here's what I'll say. I feel like I've been on the train ride of trying to make it on the digital landscape in some form or fashion for many years. I turned 30 in a couple weeks.
Speaker 2:Oh, I am just guys if you find her instagram, send her a happy birthday. Okay, please like it. Uh, like this content and subscribe. Share with your friends. I'm just putting that as a joke but please like it happy early birthday, thank you, wow.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and don't forget to like subscribe, discuss it as as I am about to turn 30 and, having been on this ride for a bit, I'm I'm kind of just now getting to this space of a little bit of fuck it. And but also it's. I feel like it's rooted in a sense of maturity about like that track might not totally be for me.
Speaker 1:It may have aspects of it that look similar to it. But now I'm kind of like, if it hasn't worked up until this point, something's got to give. And the only thing I've gotten well, not the only thing I've I've been doing a lot of observing.
Speaker 1:I've been collecting a lot of data on stuff, which is great, and my passion for that hasn't been lost but again, just kind of knowing that I don't fit in certain molds but still comparing myself to others who I think I want to be like them or aspire to be a peer of theirs in some way, whether in my body of work or in you know, the same creative circles, I'm like I can't do exactly what they're doing and I think the thing I have the most conviction on in terms of whether you are running a business or being an entrepreneur and are a creative I do put air quotes around that because I am exhausted by the entrepreneur space as well.
Speaker 2:We'll just call them slashies or whatever that is Slashies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there is a little bit of an artistic renaissance in content.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But I think what's going to surprise people the most is that there's going to be huge successes but they're not going to look like anything in terms of the success examples of success we've seen over the last five to 12 years. Okay, and that people are not going to go viral the same way that they have. We're not going to have we don't have centralized social media platforms anymore Like Facebook's a joke.
Speaker 2:A great Instagram use.
Speaker 1:Instagram is a whole can of worms, I'm frankly we can get into the AI stuff for sure. I'm really annoyed by like that meta AI search thing that nobody wants.
Speaker 1:Twitter is a joke and I refuse to call it x because it's whatever whatever, I literally, on the way here, drove past one of the few cyber trucks that somebody has in this area and it's upsetting, and they had it wrapped like matte red too, like I saw it and had like a like an immediate reaction of upset it. I'm like why? Anyway, that's not the point. The point is we've had, we've we had a really like manic high in terms of the short internet history and even like the youtube we know today, really has only existed for again maybe 10 years yeah though youtube's been around much longer than that.
Speaker 1:We're going to enter into a new cycle where it's already happening. The internet is bloated with bots and AI-generated content. That's not even good AI-generated content.
Speaker 2:There's a dead internet theory too.
Speaker 1:The dead internet theory. I love that. I love spooky shit, but also because I am a sucker for a 40 plus minute youtube video essay about stuff like this so like that's.
Speaker 1:That's my jam. Um, the, the social media platforms that have kind of put us in in this, the position that we are now, that we kind of associate with the culture and the texture of the social internet, they suck now nobody wants to be on them but it's the capitalistic thing with everyone wants, it's like, quality, uh no, they want quantity announced profits over the customer.
Speaker 2:It's just. I remember, like you said, instagram used to be a place to share genuine thoughts and photos, but no longer is that going to be.
Speaker 1:There's no incentive for someone to be on any of these platforms, unless they are a money-making machine for the platform. And these platforms need to fucking realize which they know, but they refuse to do anything about it that the only reason they have any market value is because of the labor of the creators that are on there the creators that are on there, but they will only reward you for bending over backwards and using their native features to maybe get the fucking chance of being shared to the actual followers you have as well as discovery pages like it's.
Speaker 1:It's absurd and I I I can't fully predict what will happen to these platforms other than probably for the next couple of years, as they get more and more bloated with just this hollow ass crap that nobody wants, that nobody's asked for. But also, these people have been taught to create because that's what they were told to do to be successful. I don't want to put anyone in any particular corner, because we're all kind of victim to it to some degree, but people like you and me, who are like we want to have conversation yet but we are also too exhausted to do anything but small talk unless we set aside time and a social battery to do it. Or we want to just fucking make art, and if you have something to say that you want to share with the world, and it have something, a substance, it's's gonna be a lot quieter, but it's gonna fucking outlast all of this other stuff so much joy back here, guys.
Speaker 2:I love that passion. Holy crap that passion. No, it's just, and that's the tea wait what? And that's the tea oh, I love what you said, where the art sure it may it may not be as viral or something that everybody will always love and will always share. The one thing that I like hearing from your statement, which was, yeah, sure it may not be the loudest, but it will outlast everything else Because here's what's going to happen, because this is already true.
Speaker 1:I am constantly discovering new YouTube channels, new creators, new artists who have anywhere in the ballpark of 10 K to a few hundred K followers, subscribers what have you? I would kill. I have those numbers on any of my platforms. That being said, that's small beans and in the larger scale, of people who there are so many people who have millions of subscribers or followers on TikTok or YouTube these other platforms, but these people I'm discovering.
Speaker 1:I look at their pages. I'm like are they new? Where have they been? There's a whole ecosystem that I'm new to but has existed for years. They build a platform for themselves.
Speaker 1:They built a brand they're doing well without needing to be a household name. So what's going to happen and what is? I think a lot of how Gen Z is approaching stuff in the sense of romanticizing a slightly more analog lifestyle and analog not being fully unplugged, but maybe opting for. I hate that they call it a dumb phone, it's just called a cell phone. That's the only thing I will pick a bone about.
Speaker 2:I bought one light phone. It does help.
Speaker 1:It does help and things like that, but they'll also. People are craving that third space, that community, the like, personal touch, and there are so many young adults walking around right now who do not know a world without this stuff Without phones.
Speaker 1:So they're going to be the ones who all the headlines are going to call Like look at them rediscovering how to go on a walk without their phone, or look at them discovering how to have an in-person book club. Look at these silly kids. They're not silly kids. They're going after the things that they've been deprived of because our culture got way too greedy with the shiny new next thing and we're all fucking depressed because of it and I'll have ADHD now. So there's going to be that other pendulum swing. The thing that's it's. It's just not going to be this big boom and excitement that came along with, like the rise of, you know, like YouTube creators suddenly getting paid to be creating content on YouTube specifically, which I will say on the record, I would not lump YouTube into the same category as, like Facebook or TikTok or Instagram.
Speaker 2:Well, youtube has their it's been successful out of everything else. Or TikTok or Instagram Well, youtube has their it's been successful out of everything else.
Speaker 1:They have their issues, but like of all of the other, like businesses, like platforms that are paying creators, so they have market value. Youtube has been the strongest in that, and it's not exactly a social media platform either.
Speaker 1:It is a publisher of content, but not just any content. It's educational videos, it's podcasts, it's short films, it's scary stuff, it's gameplays, and I think people will probably, as we all, have an opportunity to kind of slow down because we're going to not spend time in these hollow, bloated apps as much anymore. We're actually going to take our time with the internet, like we used to, and visit websites and spend time slowing down. We're going to once again diversify our language and how we describe things, because things have moved so quickly for the last however many years. You know I'm making content. I'm doing it for the gram the gram. I'm just it's all shorthand and we made it all shorthand because we couldn't be bothered to stop and actually describe what we're doing. We're not thinking about what we're doing or what we're creating.
Speaker 1:We haven't been and now we are, and that's going to come with its own pains and challenges, but that's actually what has me optimistic now is this grand slowdown and this grand thing of like we're just done dealing with the bullshit that social media platforms have been dealing with us.
Speaker 2:You know it's gonna be hard to. That's harder to okay this is where I those are my predictions not fair, but that's such a high optimistic view, the one the value of conversations, the value of great content, meaningful stuff has been so hard to find, when all of the content that's being produced as of lately has been nothing more than just.
Speaker 1:For example YouTube.
Speaker 2:I do not like. How have you ever seen those videos where it's like constant cut, cut, cut, cut? It's a retention edit style.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I cannot handle that because I can't do that and I understand the merits behind it and I think on a smaller scale, it's like yeah, that's a strategy that can be successful, but not everybody needs to do it.
Speaker 1:But suddenly everybody's doing it because that's the YouTube formula. But it's not. It's a formula to replicate something. Yeah, the youtube formula, but it's not it's a formula to replicate something. Yeah, and just have the, the outcome that you want, which is a higher retention. And I'm like, look, if I can't keep your interest for the first few minutes like I god save us, I can't help you. You can't help me.
Speaker 2:I love what you said, if you can't, if you can't keep somebody's attention, uh, for any shorter, longer than 30 minutes, then you're doing something wrong. Because if you have to edit, I think it has to start from creating real content that catches somebody's attention instead of having to fix it. I don't know. Long term, long relaxed scenes are so much better because gives your mind going back to digital age. We're all trained to look for shiny things, but not only. Not only do they realize that they're also losing the capacity to pay attention to anything longer than three seconds, because once they get a hold of the shiny things, it forms this dopamine uh response. Yes, you can't, you gotta keep going, going, going, going and I think value of having that is starting to overlook, like it's overtaking the value of what's really important Slowing down and just appreciating what's there.
Speaker 1:I don't know, bro, and that's why we need our artists back. I don't think our artists have left.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:I think our artists are here, but a lot of us have been fallen into that trap of trying to conform to the hot thing which is be a content creator.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's why I am pretty belligerent at this point of being like you can be a YouTuber, but not every YouTuber is a YouTuber. There are, like the video I did oh my God, kevin Pergeron, whatever, love him. I love Defunct land, that, like I love long videos so much. But the thing about video essays is like you can just like dive into a topic you wouldn't have discovered on your own.
Speaker 1:So in a way, as a filmmaker, he's also curating he's curating history and ideas and in subject matter, and that's also what artists do and so like. It's so interesting to have watched this moment in the video he did, of having that self-reflective moment of like the the lifespan of this type of creative career or body of work on the digital landscape. Like that's the stuff where I'm like we need to chill out for a second, because I'm just now getting Facebook memories that say 13 years ago and 14 years ago and I'm like.
Speaker 1:Does nobody else think this is weird? Right, like does? Is nobody else having a full-blown like mental breakdown over? Like my phone? I have a phone with an app that's showing me something I did online on this day 14 years ago. What's? That's the age of a fresh like a freshman in high school. They don't even have their learner's permit. That's the age of a fresh like a freshman in high school. They don't even have their learner's permit.
Speaker 2:That's the age of my time on the internet that's also like another version of an online journal of writing yeah, it's another digital version.
Speaker 2:Is that why you feel optimistic about the whole internet? It's like it's another extension of someone who's being a writer, where they're always used, they're dependent before they're dependent on the actual physical body of work, like uh media, uh magazines. But what internet with the rise of the internet, do you think? From your perspective, it's also a good thing because it's another form of extension of someone that's identifying themselves as a writer and being able to have a higher reach to potential people that read their pieces of work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:My thoughts remain optimistic, as much as I will yell and scream and cuss and bite somebody on this stuff because it is I almost want to say it's such a blessing. But how cool is it that we live in a time where there is this technology available to us that allows us to do things that we wouldn't have been able to do 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago. That's really freaking cool and that is really humbling in the grand scheme of like this earth, my lifetime, the cosmos, like we need to check ourselves sometimes. Like life is short, it's not all that serious.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's one thing. The other thing, too, is I kind of take a little bit of a Marshall McLuhan perspective on it, which is like there's always going to be some level of neutrality to technological advancement. However, the application of it and the practice of it is going to have a positive and a negative outcome, and it's up to us and the people who are in charge of implementing that stuff to make sure that the positives outweigh the negatives. If new tech replaces a job, the people who are displaced do get displaced, and historically, the problem is more so that the people in charge of that are not taking care of the people who need new jobs.
Speaker 2:Okay, I agree with that one Because the tech didn't do it.
Speaker 1:The people using the tool did that.
Speaker 2:And that is a misuse of the people. Okay.
Speaker 1:The other third thing here is I have a very strong distinction between the Internet and social media platforms. The Internet and social media are not the same thing. The social media platforms are powered by the Internet because of you know the hyper web. You know how technology is connected and data is shared between servers and satellites and fiber optic cable. But like the internet, I think is a really cool place.
Speaker 1:It's been abandoned. It's been left to, you know a lot of ad spaces and stuff. I think we will have a reacquaintance with internet culture specifically, but I do see a strong distinction between the internet and social media platforms and social media culture, because social media culture is the newer stuff. That's the like where we're approaching everything from like an app-based approach versus like our computer, which gave us a little bit more agency because the internet.
Speaker 2:You just mentioned that it's dying place now for the ad space, but with with the app-based approach like Discord, do you remember Yo y'all remember what? Internet where you can just create forums and you just talk about the topics? I've been seeing a rise in the apps such as Discord, where you're now having a much more intimate, like an intimate environment with users all over the world, and it's about uh. You create a channel or a topic about a specific uh issue, whatever it is that I can. You didn't.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize that until you brought that up because remember when we were like in school and we spent time on the internet and maybe we spent time on Facebook. We. I started my Facebook on facebookcom.
Speaker 2:Wait, you said change. No, no, All these kids.
Speaker 1:I want to say kids, but a lot of them are grown adults in the workforce now I mean grown adults, as much as you can be at like 22. Um, they started their Facebook, their Instagram, their whatever on their phones. They didn't do that on the computer.
Speaker 2:They don't know Facebook as a website. I'm having a hard time remembering what?
Speaker 1:No True. I came across a TikTok about it. I even wrote about it. You didn't do your research.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm visibly. I'm like remembering when Instagram came out.
Speaker 1:Instagram did start as an app. I'll give it that, but in the in the desktop came later because apps were such a new thing, at least what I remember in high school, like my senior year?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like 2012. Wait, are we? Are we make a distinction between?
Speaker 1:I'm saying there are arguments to be made for distinction between the Internet and social media because they're not. They're just not the same thing.
Speaker 2:Jeez.
Speaker 1:They're connected but they're not the same thing. And so I'm optimistic for the internet, for the technology that I think will empower us to innovate the career path of a creative in the digital space. But I think the toxicity that social media platforms has curated for us and perpetuates for us, that's what's going to kind of fall away, and you see more and more people saying like I don't do social media. But, yes, there's a level of unavoidability when it comes to, you know, finding your tribe, finding your community, finding people. How do you do that? The internet, use your computer, your computer is so fucking powerful like fuck the phone. You know who cares about that.
Speaker 1:I haven't posted on instagram more than like 10 times in the last like year and a half, but I've made so many more meaningful internet friends in that last year too. And it's not because I'm, like you know, trying to be someone. I'm not. It's because, like we took a moment, either I did or they did of like, hey, I really like what you had to say here. I really enjoyed what you wrote. I like this. A lot of those came through non-social media spaces Substack. I made a lot of connections through Clubhouse when it was still cool and fun.
Speaker 1:None of those things were like as flashy as the heyday of social media and the quickness to scale the people following you, the people liking you, the people engaging with your stuff. That's what is a kind of a little bit of against our human nature and kind of where we falter and where the broken, the how the line of communication is broken down well, we're diving into the psychological aspect of this, then, um as a crate yeah as a crater see, I'm joking, I'm using as a running joke in the entire conversation.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, the psychological aspect is like I find it really hard to believe that it can be all that optimistic when the psychological impact on our younger generation and even on us I don't if you're saying that we're all everything the apps, the phones is all slowly becoming integrated in part as part of our lives and in personal and professional. I don't know if we're acknowledging the psychological aspects, the problems that can come with that. Um, more it should. I think it should be more um talking about because, yeah sure, everyone's, everyone's. It's like we're all connected but we're also disconnected at the same time.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think a potentially chronically online take is if we express something positive about something that also has negative attributes or negative things going on at the same time, that it is cosigning or endorsing the negative things going on at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That it is co-signing or endorsing the negative things it's doing Social media, the apps, the platforms, the internet. I think at its root is neutral.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:Hang on, but it's all. Everything's an episode of Black Mirror About to get an electric.
Speaker 2:Let's go Long story short, everything's an episode of Black Mirror. About to get an electric? Let's go.
Speaker 1:Long story short, everything's just an episode of Black Mirror, because the thing that gives it an intent is the user and the person running it and the person who is taking that tool, which is in a neutral state, and then doing something with it.
Speaker 2:That's what gives it an intent and a meaning?
Speaker 1:Okay what gives it an intent and a meaning. So I I hear you and I understand why people don't have hope for the internet or your social media or whatever. I get it I every single author I talk to. I work in publishing, by the way.
Speaker 2:Um, just floor drop right there oh, if you like this content, or if you want to see some of her work she worked for for a publishing house, there you go.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I've been doing that for many years. I work with many, many authors, different walks of life, and so many of them hate social media. I'm like, I get it and I give them my philosophy, which is a little bit more. I have a more holistic take on it and all that being said, but I understand the grievances, I understand the exhaust, like I do not have a healthy relationship with social media. A lot of what I'm sharing here comes from a little bit of almost an academic lens, and that's where I find passion and interest in it.
Speaker 1:My optimism does not negate the things, the problems that need to be addressed and the and the unknown long-term consequences of this stuff. Like, I watch a handful of vloggers and I remember, a few years ago, one of these vloggers she's just um, anyway, this vlogger she went and had her brain scanned and doctor the doctor is talking about like more and more people who are in her line of work. And the doctor is talking about like more and more people who are in her line of work, who create content frequently, like it affects their brain, how they are reading comments, the type of comments that they're getting, the work schedule that they're doing, the lack of boundaries between work and real life and, oh, it's content I'm making. Content has a consequence. That is absolutely true and I acknowledge that is true. And I can also, still, at the same time, hold optimism for the future, because this is a little bit of my woo you know, law of attraction side. But all of those issues are an opportunity for something to be done about it.
Speaker 2:We haven't really been, but we haven't no and that's kind of the.
Speaker 1:Probably the next thing to be addressed is like who is it up to? Who has it been up to? Is it possible for us who are angry enough about it and want to do something about it to actually do something about it? And part of that for me is like talking about this stuff and like stop acting like some of these things that we treat as normal is normal and we don't need to be alarmist, we don't need to banish it, we don't need to renounce it, but we need to talk about its complexities and not fight with each other over the identity politics of like well, I like this thing and you like that thing, so that must mean the what about? Isms are true and you hate babies, you know and that's what are we doing.
Speaker 1:How are we spending our time talking to each other? That's that's what I want people to just stop doing, so we can have room for conversation, so we can maybe get to the point of addressing those like the larger systematic issues.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't think that's going to be possible in this way, I'm not trying to be, I'm just no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I hear you, it's more. I'm the it's more at the lens of. I'm trying to put my, after hearing all that, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who's now growing up in this current generation as we go further along with this.
Speaker 2:Advancements in our technology and our communications, so so too will the um, the knowledge about what it was like before. That will soon disappear. Imagine if we're older and we're all dying off and the kids are telling oh, what do you talk about that time?
Speaker 2:that was so lame yeah that argument is gonna be, it's gonna, it's become, it's gonna be something so difficult to convince and to bring out the issues, because now the people that are now growing up will no longer have the capability of understanding the value of everything that came before this, and they will no longer. They will have a hard time understanding where we're coming from, because they didn't.
Speaker 1:They're no longer living it or experiencing some form of what we experience that's why I like nostalgia core, like nostalgia core analog horror yeah those aesthetic lenses are so popular because a lot of people who make like analog horror content did not grow up with vhs's or camcorders. They're Gen Z and I am a little scared of some of these younger generations. You know I'm not going to lie. That being said, I can totally see there being I don't think there's going to be a ubiquitous thing, but I could see there being communities or lifestyles that are adopted.
Speaker 1:that because they have media showing some picture of what life was like before these things and why they romanticize it, that it's like, wow, life seemed quieter, life seemed more simple, life seemed more peaceful. Let's live that way. I can see that totally happening. It might be a total moot point that all of these technological advancements are happening too quickly.
Speaker 1:That or it's just going to create a larger gap between the people who have the money and are making these things and funding it and sending rockets up in the air for no reason other than because they have too much money and they want to be whatever reason other than because they have too much money and they want to be whatever, and then like the everyday people. That I feel like doesn't get a little bit into sci-fi, dystopian territory.
Speaker 2:But I mean, don't look up, watch that movie, don't look up. Anyways, that was really fun.
Speaker 1:I enjoyed it. I don't know why people did not enjoy that movie, but because there's a message in it. They don't want to acknowledge it I know and people like oh look our world is actually going to shit, but they're just like no, it looks pretty.
Speaker 2:I like the movie, but anyways I thought it was fine.
Speaker 1:Um, but it's, and it's fine to have disagreements about not liking stuff um, but yeah, I can totally see and I think there's like glimpses of that even happening now with these young adults who did not grow up in that world, who do not know that world, but they have so much media showing them that world and maybe adopting aspects of that lifestyle and that may be becoming trendy or popular and there being a slowdown of everybody having the same iPhone or everybody having the same everything, because that's what we all have.
Speaker 1:this stuff has only been happening for a short time a short time, but we don't know what's going to happen next.
Speaker 1:I can, I obviously, have predictions of like things that are probably going to come out or come to be, but really that's maybe over the next like three to five years. Beyond that we don't know what's going to happen next and I, as I have my own history of you, know my own deep, dark, twisted thoughts and stuff. Like I have been on the negative train, I have had to do a lot of self-work in that area and it's something I still struggle with.
Speaker 1:I, when I have something I can persistently be optimistic about, I'm going to do it. That's something I'm going to be stubborn about and I am also comfortable with like you, my friend disagreeing with that, and that doesn't conflict with how I feel about you or will continue feeling about you. Like, it really is that simple to not fully agree on everything and still be really cool with each other, you know.
Speaker 2:I think it comes down to healthy communication, whereas that type of disagreement that we're having in this generation, it's just going to do it for the sake of disagreeing.
Speaker 2:If there's no, they're like no, no, this is better, this and this and that. That is why y'all need to learn to have real conversations when real conversations take place, so you can. That will lead to a healthier resolution to all conflicts, because you took the time to listen to one another, but you all are not doing that because we're all having short span of attention. Yeah, I love social media and technology, but it is also a problem in some ways of form. Speaking of problems, I would love to go into a parasocial thing, because one of the thing about that I'd love to know your opinion is when it comes to the audience, um, forming this quote-unquote real relationship with creators.
Speaker 2:I'm now interested in not so much more of what you already. You already defined what parasocial relationships look like. Now I want to know what your thoughts are on the psychological aspects, because, as you said, we have multitude of wonderful creators, but there's also another crazy amount of bad creators who are exerting influences that should not have been exposed to younger generation, and even on us. So, with the parasocial relationships dynamic, how does that even work with? You know you have creators like I'm going to get hate for this the Paul brothers you have.
Speaker 1:I thought you were going to bring up, like Colleen Ballinger or something Never heard of her of. Well, see, see in the in the internet is so abundant, there's space for there to be two big scandals that you know, one that you weren't just unaware of but is a, you know, I think, a culturally relevant thing but it also can be something you don't know.
Speaker 1:That happened, which is fine, along and short, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna go ahead and answer this along Long and short is if there is an opportunity for someone in a position of power to exploit and manipulate someone in a lower position of power than them, they will do it. That has nothing to do with a parasocial relationship.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But that type of abuse doesn't exist because parasocial relationships exist, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:But the viewer is forming that relationship because they were initially-.
Speaker 1:If someone's in a higher position of power and influence over somebody, they can abuse it, and that's gonna happen in different circles all the time. That is an existing crime against humanity. What people have attached to, I think, is the parasocial of it all, because remember when I was talking about all those academic journals I downloaded about parasocial relationships, most of the studies or essays talking about it had an extremely negative lens and perspective on parasocial relationships and perspective on parasocial relationships.
Speaker 1:People who have parasocial relationships with celebrities or fictional characters. They're sad, they're lonely, they're antisocial, they're introverted. It all had a negative take on it and there was one essay that or study, I should say, that did like a 60-year like survey of the available studies that focused on that and their conclusion was overwhelmingly the bias was on parasocial relationships are negative, plain and simple. But that's just not true.
Speaker 1:Parasocial relationships, I think, can be a positive thing. You know, when we talk about like comfort characters or you know I watch specific creators on YouTube because it's comfortable, it does feel like somebody I know I can have the acknowledgement of. Like this person does not know I exist. They know I exist, like conceptually, as a member of their audience maybe, but like I know they don't know me. I'll never know them, but I do know this persona of them and this persona of them is something I can put on in the background or watch or engage with and I laugh. It helps me, maybe helps me fall asleep at night. It's something I want to share with friends, like that's okay and that's fine If there's an opportunity for something to go off the rails, that that's going to just happen and that's multiple things going on, but it's not, it's almost never one singular thing that happens.
Speaker 1:And what's funny? Funny, you know, even before we started recording and we were talking and, like you, you have made it clear you wanted to ask me about parasocial relationships before I talk. And we ended up talking about a whole bunch of other stuff which, like, is all fine and dandy. But I almost wanted to ask you, like, what is your interest in parasocial phenomenon? Because I, to me, I feel like, because it's a hot topic or hot buzzword, like that is the attractive thing and I think that, um, I'm just kind of curious like what your fascination was with asking me about it I had.
Speaker 1:I had never heard of the word parasocial oh really yes, and second I read into Well, you're probably less chronically online than I am.
Speaker 2:Well, I have all the accounts like head record and all this. I have to post it. But I don't know what that. But anyways, I had no idea that word existed and when I got into what you wrote about that specific term, especially with Hank Green, the YouTuber or whoever- he was. It wasn't so much about how the term itself is now becoming like one of those buzzwords blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:It was more of the psychological aspect and anything such as whether it's technology or compensation. I always find it so interesting in how people are affected by whatever it is that they're exposed to in the psychological and mental um, what's that word? Uh, emotional and mental aspects. I don't care about uh, what parasocial has to offer in terms of the content, but rather more of how it affects one another, whether you're a person as a creative or filmmaker, whatever. That's the part that really makes that made it interesting based on what you wrote. That's why I'm asking all about that.
Speaker 1:I hope that answers it yeah, and I I feel like parasocial relationships are born out of just very human things like we, we um, are social people and I think media has offered an opportunity to almost socialize in interpersonal relationships because we um are alike in some ways or there's something about like um, you have common ground, or oh there, this person is really good at this thing. I like to learn more and they seem so cool, like I want to hang out with them. Or, you know, you want to get something out of somebody else which again isn't. Again, there's not always something nefarious behind that. So when you get to spend time with a content creator in the way that it is set up of here, I'm watching your content. When I'm watching a YouTuber, I'm spending time with them, but in the context of the internet and the social media, of it all and how they're presenting themselves and they are just another person. Like I am just another person. And then that stuff gets complicated, you know, if they go down the route of fame.
Speaker 1:And there's this money and there's these things and then there's these opportunities they may or may not exploit or whatever. But it's like, wow, this is a person just like me. So it's like there are the qualities and the vibes mostly of an interpersonal relationship, but it functions like a um, um, you know, a power dynamic or somebody who is famous and you're not, or whatever, and so it's it's kind of mixing up two different types of communication dynamics that historically or just don't go together, and now they're kind of making up new mixed match pairings. And because this stuff is still new, we still need time to understand it, and that's mostly what I argue for, or try to at least, is to continue discussing it, but not trying to shove everything under this label or that label. But this, like we don't understand it yet.
Speaker 1:You know I half-jokingly but earnestly, posed a suggestion on TikTok to Hank Green because I'm like he might see it, he might not, it's whatever. I'm not doing this just so Hank Green will look at me, but he's someone. I admire him and John whatever. Long story short, but posing for him and his brother. As people spend a lot of time creating content and they have a large community behind them online, they also experience a type of parasocial relationship, but kind of in the reverse, because it's not with an individual, it's with their audience, it's with their community, and so, okay, we're getting into mucky territory and you know, hank and John, you know, kind of suggested, instead of calling it parasocial, to call it seripocial, because it's in the reverse.
Speaker 2:Telesocial.
Speaker 1:And then I came up with telesocial, because tela, the root, tela means at a distance, para means abnormal.
Speaker 2:Like paranormal.
Speaker 1:Like paranormal, right. So it means like this is not a normal thing and parasocial relationships aren't normal, but I don't think they're bad either, inherently. And then you know, telosocial might not be the thing to describe you know a content creator's experience and their relationship with their audience but it might be something else and that's cool. But I think we should figure out what all of this means and how to describe it and talk about it with each other, because if we don't come to an agreement on the semantics and the pragmatics, we won't understand each other, and then we can't innovate, we can't solve problems. We will continue to be too busy yelling at each other into the void online and not making anything cool actually happen you know they're too.
Speaker 2:They're too busy being right in their own um opinion. It's just they're too caught up in that to see the bigger picture, which is frustrating when there's so much to be better to be there, when there's so much work to be done and at a lot faster pace, when they can just work together, put aside their differences and come up with something else entirely different. What are some of the actionable steps that people that you've identified as content creators for the lack of better sentence or term to avoid the problems that come with the parasocial relationships but also still cater to? Because you mentioned in your I think your essay said it said that the parasocial relationships would the creators in that dynamic relationship, dynamic whatever they have. It also determines the type of content that they make and what they want to do with the audience and all of that stuff. So what are some of the actionable steps that they can do, that they can take to make sure it actually produces a lot of positives rather than the negatives?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and this kind of goes back to something you had asked me and I didn't quite answer directly, which is like you know you had asked me and I didn't quite answer directly, which is like you know how to approach you know business, or like how I approach the idea of business even in this context it's like uh, I'm I'm advocating for chucking out all of the advice that these creators have been given, which is, you know, make something you're passionate about, but then, after you start getting a little bit of traction, see what does well and these topics perform
Speaker 1:well and then only make videos about this stuff and just know, if you deviate from this path, your audience that knows you for this and the algorithm that knows you for only talking about Star Wars and Legos or whatever. As soon as you do something that you just want to do for fun, you're going to get punished terribly and people are gonna hate you for it and your career is never gonna cover. So you better hard pivot and make sure you're uploading twice a week at the same time, every no fuck that shit.
Speaker 2:It's so overwhelming you lose the reason why you did it in the first nobody can, no, all.
Speaker 1:I don't know how more people haven't realized sooner how absurd all of this is and I'm like over here, just like, fuck that, just fuck it it's. I have. I spent a lot of time in my early twenties in community with people who advocate for that, who wanted that, and I will absolutely acknowledge that there are strategies, such as the one I went on a tirade on, that can work and have produced results, but that doesn't mean that's what's going to work for you. This is why I want for somebody, even if it is just myself, to feel comfortable making the distinction of I'm an artist but I'm not a content creator. Because if I am an artist but I feel like the only path forward or the easiest way to explain myself is to say I'm a content creator, that puts me in a totally different mindset. Artists are still carving the pathways to community and career and success in the digital space, but have been lumped in with the content creation machine.
Speaker 1:And I really don't want to throw shade at true content creators because they're just doing the system and doing them and they have their own consequences to to deal with. But to to continue answering your actual question when it comes to addressing, as as an artist or even a creator online, the parasocial of it all, it is an unavoidable to not have a freaking reaction if someone comments on your thing and you're like what the fuck? When it's clearly rage bait, when it's clearly someone who doesn't know you, someone who was not the intended audience for what you put out yeah it's so normal to have a reaction and we just first need to acknowledge we're going to have a reaction.
Speaker 1:Second, screw doing like fan service. Screw doing, taking what you love to do and what you are figuring out for yourself and what you have a relationship with and morphing it into something for others. Fuck that. I think true content creators do that. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make money online. You have the means and resources and the time and the dedication and discipline to do it. Go, do exactly that. Go, put out a bunch of content that's going to rank well in search engines, that's going to respond well with audiences. You pick a niche, you do that. You hire a team, whatever. All the love to you. But if an artist is doing that, they're going to fucking shrivel up and die. I'm not convinced otherwise. If someone else is successfully doing that, great, but I don't know how long their career is going to last, because in this last beginning of 2024, many YouTubers who have been on the platform for 10 years or however long they're quitting.
Speaker 2:MatPat, we miss you, man MatPat, we miss you bro.
Speaker 1:Even though.
Speaker 2:I don't watch your content.
Speaker 1:I hear it from my girlfriend, but it looks good, uh, matpat, and then you have, oh my god, there's so there's a good handful and even people that like I knew of but maybe didn't watch, but like they've been on the platform for for 10 years. But it's like you could be a filmmaker for 30 or 40 or your entire life. You could be a journalist for however long, but if we were just making content creator a type of career in a box to check off and a box to fit in that is a very short lifespan because of how they've been taught to build a platform for themselves.
Speaker 2:That's fair. But what if they're doing it for good intentions? But the way to keep their intentions, their projects, to reach a bigger audience, where they want to improve, have a good influence on, they would need a system that would fund their, what they're trying to achieve, and I'm not saying there's nothing, there's not room for noble and well and good intentions.
Speaker 1:I think we've all been told and believed that if you want to make an impact, and make an impact on the global stage with the World. Wide Web, you got to have millions of people following you.
Speaker 1:There's what 8 billion people on this planet, whatever, how many like with 10 000 is a lot, it's a lot, but we're just since so many people are desensitized to the numbers and I think that when you're told to continue to grow, your channels got like your youtube channel's got to grow, go to grow, go to grow. You you hit like 500K. You could build a sustaining, impactful business from that, and maybe the things you create on there doesn't have a direct impact on the full extent of your reach, but you can then put yourself in a position to make larger reach. We've just been told how to do this wrong, and I think the advice probably came originally from really good intention, and I think the people who have executed it well for the last five to ten to twelve years also have good intentions. But this isn't working and it can't work forever and like we.
Speaker 1:We gotta let go of the grind and realize that holy fuck 10 000 people.
Speaker 1:If you have their attention, that's a lot of people that it's gonna be more than the build, the size of this building that's that's crazy and those, and if those 10 000 people you know share your story with at least one person each, which they're gonna tell more people than that, like that's 20 000, like there's there's another way to grow and scale, without it needing to be this overnight thing and feeding a machine that you can never satisfy and then it believing and instilling that like I'm not good enough and I can't make it happen and my dream is so big, but I've worked so hard and did it, and like people are depressed tired you just okay.
Speaker 2:When I was creating this, when I made this hidden record thing, I got so hung up on why in the hell? Do I have this many views or um 17 subscribers, whatever? Yeah, at this time of this recording 17. It's something about what you said made me revisit how I'm acting and viewing the all the work that I'm trying to put into what you're feeling and describing.
Speaker 1:I go through this on a daily basis. I am the worst about being a brat and being just a dysregulated mess when I'm like okay, I uploaded, is this Instagram that I opened? I think I did. I uploaded the same video on Instagram and TikTok what is content?
Speaker 1:no, just a random ass clip because I just wanted to 231 views on Instagram and then TikTok I think I got like 700 views and I'm like that's nothing. I'm like if I was in a room with the number of views as people that saw that that's a lot of people.
Speaker 2:But I want to do more. I want to share good stuff like this to help make a change.
Speaker 1:I know, but I think you and me and a lot of other people have bought into the misunderstanding that doing more and doing great in a world where we have the accessibility to things we would have never dreamed of being accessible to, that if we're not continually getting bigger and bigger and bigger and hitting larger and larger numbers that we're somehow failing at it.
Speaker 1:And it's like I've mentioned, I feel like a few different times in this, that there are creators and artists and people I'm coming across all the time who are, you know, relatively speaking, when you look at their numbers, they're doing pretty well for themselves and I've never heard of them and and they can be successful and do great things and make big impact in the communities that they want to and build all this stuff and have a legacy, and I can never have heard of them. And there's enough room in this world, which is also kind of a scary thought. The world is a big place, but there is enough room to make that big impact that we want, but maybe not exactly as big as we're thinking and it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 1:You know, you are only worth anything if you get a million subscribers or five million subscribers on youtube or whatever it is like. You can do a lot without having to be a truly absurd number. It is absurd for someone to be a truly absurd number. It is absurd for someone to have a million subscribers. It is absurd to have 10 million subscribers, but that's the goalpost, but that's the goalpost.
Speaker 2:It takes a hard work to.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of people I know, but, but also 500's a lot of people know, but, but also 500 is a lot of people.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to remember that I'm trying to, but we need to.
Speaker 1:I need to hear it too, you need to hear it, I need to hear it, somebody else needs to hear it. 500 views, 10, 10 likes, 10 likes on me saying oh, I put up a new sub stack essay. That's 10 people and like people that that means something, that's worth something. If we, if we want to have a world where we care about substance and art and care about each other again, we got to get comfortable with smaller numbers and I've been saying that for many years now. The one of the next growing pains is getting really comfortable with smaller numbers and making a lot of success out of that. But I think we've been led to believe that we can't be successful without hitting certain large, absurdly stupid numbers god damn it.
Speaker 2:All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna hide the numbers on my you. We're almost out of time actually, guys, but there's like a couple things I want to wrap up before that was rapid fire.
Speaker 1:Now what I said rapid fire, let's go lightning rapid, yes, rapid fire round, lightning round, let's go.
Speaker 2:No, seriously, that is why I love.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm gonna go off a little bit of tangent here, not a long, please do, because I did like seven no that is why, whenever I hear, that's why I love connecting with people, having real conversations, because sometimes, when you're, I often find myself in spaces like you describe internet and social media where it's just all this convoluted messages that don't really feel genuine. But conversations like this feel a lot more impactful, on a smaller scale because it's just one-on-one, but it's hearing that message, um like, so there are things that I thought I know already but it needed to be told by from someone else in person. So, like, sometimes, 500 subscribers is like you were just said it's not enough.
Speaker 2:It needs to be more.
Speaker 1:But it, it means something and it means I know big and I will also say I say this a lot like an aha moment is like shit, you already know, but like you needed to hear, right then yeah you know, and like that's definitely the little bit of the woo, the little bit of the tarot coming through, in the sense of like I tell you, like just shit comes out of my mouth and sometimes people are like oh my god, that was amazing and I'm like I feel like I blacked out. I'm gonna watch this pack and be like did I say that thing? Because I just showed up and started talking what so?
Speaker 2:with that being said, um, does your tarot card reading say anything about the success of this podcast?
Speaker 1:you don't have to say I actually I don't have cards on me. I used to carry them around. Actually a little story. I accidentally left my travel size deck um in seattle at my friend's house, so eventually she's gonna mail it back to me.
Speaker 1:But I'm like it. Fine, it'll come back to me when I'm ready. Not that I don't have like 10 different texts at home, but I would love if this is the moment that, for some reason, I go viral. But like it may never happen, it's just as likely that I would go viral as I would never go viral for an example of things. I just like doing this and doing it with people like you, who I do love, and in many ways I often compare myself in a way of like wow, I wish I could do some of the stuff like Kina is doing. Like that's really cool and you know, even if I'm not doing those things, I'm glad to know someone who's doing those cool things. And I hear you when it's like 500 isn't enough, 1,000 isn't enough, because that's me all the time. I'm like why don't I just have these things?
Speaker 1:I got mad for so long because I didn't get over it. I was stuck at right under 700 followers on Instagram. I got mad for so long because I didn't get over it. I was stuck at like right under 700 followers on Instagram. I got so mad about it and I'm like this is such a weird thing to be mad about. But it's okay, like I think there's validity in our emotions, but it's also worth like putting some perspective of like where is this coming from? Why do I believe this? Why do I believe this?
Speaker 1:And you know, when you strip away the vanity metrics, it's like we want to do great things and we're always pushing ourselves and we're also our worst critics. And it's like it means a lot when I do have like a friend or someone you know compliment me on my work that I have put out, that is available, and I'm always like self-deprecating of like well, I only put out like one video essay in the last year and I'm like, but I did something. And there's people who have it and I it's a little weird to compare myself to people who have but it's like, but I, I did it and that means something. And when someone has told me or reached out to be like, hey, that video was great, I'm, I can't believe you watched it, thank you. I'm like going to cry.
Speaker 1:But but then the other part of my monkey brains like you didn't get enough people watching that. Like what the heck Like? Why isn't nobody watching? What am I doing wrong? And like none of that is normal. None of that is natural. It's OK to have those reactions because we've we've been set up and conditioned to have those reactions when it's not doing well you know, but like that's, but that's not true, you know you did wonderful.
Speaker 2:Seriously your question. If you feel like it went on tangent, you didn't. You gave a lot of insights of why, how you think. So you did great, thank you. You did fine.
Speaker 1:You did awesome I hope it made sense, like literally it made sense to me.
Speaker 2:The question is whether it made sense to them. I think you guys get it please comment or like this uh creator thing that we have going on. Yes anyways um, we're gonna do a closing. Um, is there anything else you would like to say before? Um, we say goodbye to the void. Just a few questions after that.
Speaker 1:Just good luck just good luck out there, and I at god's speed. Why are you?
Speaker 2:why are you, why are you talking like you're in the nasa headquarters saying that to the astronaut?
Speaker 1:because it's it's scary out there. I said I all of my optimism. I know it's scary out there. It is a scary time. We are all in our feels. No, I often feel so alone in the things that I get excited about for no other reason than being excited about it, and it lights me up.
Speaker 1:And one it is important. Something is important because it sparks my interest. If something sparks your interest, that is enough for it to make it important. The other thing is, I know I'm not alone in what I am interested in and excited about, despite feeling alone in it sometimes, and so, while part of me wants to be like I don't know why, you're having me on here because I literally the last YouTube video I uploaded was december 2023, um, and I the essay I published recently on medium was like the first one of the. Anyway, all these things, all these qualifiers of like, why I shouldn't like go do a podcast imposter syndrome, but it's like I'm. I'm getting to the point. Maybe it's my, you know's, my turning 30 and giving myself a little bit of a fresh start.
Speaker 1:You know, what Fuck it, I don't care. I just want to talk to people who are into this stuff or the people I enjoy we were told were important, that aren't and to just take advantage of the things that actually feel good and feel like a good use of our time, and to give each other grace and give ourselves a lot of grace, a lot and um yeah, that that's all I got for for the moment that is actually great.
Speaker 2:That's a great answer, seriously again. I hope it makes sense stop your self-deprecating monkey brain saying that stuff. You did great. Accept it for once, river, okay. Okay, there you go. You did wonderful. The one thing I was going to say when you mentioned about, um, how you have no idea how you got here, or whatever.
Speaker 2:While it is true that most of the creators yes, there you go creators out there may put out a lot of the work that may never be seen by millions. That specific work that they just put out may have specific purposes. They may have its own purpose that they didn't realize. It's going to reach out to the right people that need to hear it, needs to read it or need to see it, and that's a lot of. I think that's one thing that we're often forgetting and we should be reminded. So your work reach to the right people, even if you don't hear it or see it from them. You're probably, you will probably be more than surprised and more than happy and proud of yourself for being willing. Yeah, there's a fly.
Speaker 1:There's a fly that's really ruining our very poignant, emotional, warm fuzzy moment, Jeez.
Speaker 2:We're going to fly off the wall now.
Speaker 1:Okay, you can fix that in post, right? No, I can't.
Speaker 2:But I'm saying, all I'm trying to say is that your work is meaningful to a small handful of people and that's going to be more than enough and more impactful than reaching millions that read it but don't give a shit about it. So you already reached one, which is me, and you're probably going to reach two. You've already reached and will be reaching others in ways that you never expected, so you are doing great.
Speaker 1:I mean that in every way, the warm and fuzzies, all the warm and fuzzies, what I will say, to leave and to take my own medicine and the capacity as someone who works in a publishing house. I was asked to write a bonus chapter for a book that's a part of a series for leaders. It comes out this September 2024. I wrote about AI, so I will not only technically finally be published. My name will be in print, my chapter will be out there it is available for pre-order.
Speaker 1:I should probably add that link to to my stuff yeah um, yeah, so that is happening and I mostly hang out on instagram and tiktok's a wormhole, probably. Instagram is is the easiest way to to be redirected to the weird places that I hang out online sometimes or decide to share something when I've created something damn it.
Speaker 2:I just realized we didn't talk about ai oh, part, two part two river jack. Part two will ai save us. Will terminator happen? Stay tuned for part two will you? Be open to being on part two. Duh, okay, stay tuned for that and that's uh. Like it. Like and subscribe to this content. Share it to the people that will love this, um, that being said, um any last words no okay, there you go, there you have it all right guys here's my closing.
Speaker 2:All right, guys. Thank you so much for watching this episode. You can always find us on hen record at instagram. Same thing on I don't think I'm on TikTok. I think I am, but I don't like their platform.
Speaker 2:Anyways find me and everywhere, just go. My name is Kino Manuel. My user is DP by Kino, but I'm probably going to change it. I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to stay off the grid from the government. That's just the way. Yeah, anyways, thank you so much for watching and I hope you guys are having a wonderful time listening to this episode. And please let river know about your opinions on parasocial and, as well as ai, stay tuned for her upcoming book, which will be in print. That's a big achievement, by the way well, it's just chapter, not a book.
Speaker 1:I'm working myself I. I don't care.
Speaker 2:Stop, stop, stop, stop downsizing or stop minimizing.
Speaker 1:I'm just trying to not falsely advertise by accident.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, I'm sorry, please continue.
Speaker 1:It's a chapter within a book. It's an anthology of a nonfiction book. Anyway, each chapter is written by a different contributor.
Speaker 2:I was asked to write a chapter in it, so I will be published in a chapter in a book point I'm trying to make is writing is such intensive, uh, mental activity where it requires a lot of thought in what you're writing. And not only are you working on just the first draft, but you are also having to go through multiple revisions to get to the ones that you are so proud of. And in order to do that, not a lot of people realize that that is such a hard work to do. That is why I'm saying do not freaking, minimize or downplay your efforts and contributions in making a book, even if it's one chapter do you yell at all your guests like do you yell at everybody who comes here oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyways, that was the longest outro. I'll see you guys in the next episode. Bye.
